i still can't quite see how the cruor is supposed to work.

If you see it as full brawler you could say the web range bonus has the lone purpose to catch kiters, and somehow bring them into scram range. Nos range is half scram range. Which means that you will have to be point black to the target. If you aren't dead yet or capped out before being in nos range you now have the problem of having to fight something this close in the second worst tracking weapon system available: lasers.

It could work however if you would give it a small nos/neut range bonus (e.g the one of the dragoon) to be able to kite stuff at max scram range. Or do something crazy and give it a laser tracking bonus.

Cruor would be much better served by dropping the web bonus for a neut range bonus. Or they could roll the two bonuses into one, and cheat a little bit...

Blood
- neut/nos range bonus for synergy, a little more tank

Angels
- needs sharper focus, stronger shield tank . nerf armour, remove drones/launchers, nerf speed , buff damage projection of turrets
-maybe add a mwd sig reduction bonus

serpentis
- 90% webs are OP .. nerf base T2 web strength too 45% is the best solution, more tank, DD should have drams drones

sansha
- more base speed, better cap , oversized prop mods need too go

Gurista
- ... -1 slot as per drone ships normally have .. so -1 high .. utility slot isn't that useful anyway
- change the gallente bonus too drone damage bonus and leave drone HP too role bonus .. that way you can buff the drone tank without making drone damage too OP/ dominant over missile damage
- role bonus should be the missile damage
- stronger damage split between drones/missiles

Bold Point 1: This is a garbage generalization applied mainly to T1 and T2 ships which I've just made a post about, and how pirate faction ships interact with them in terms of improvement. If Pirate faction ships are to be superior I see no better way to do that than to unlink them with the horrible malus of -1 arbitrary slot. (Though if you'll look at my previous post, I do think the third high should become a mid if anything does happen to it.)

Bold Point 2: I have done math. You are no longer doing a piddly 50DPS with missiles. Your two launchers are doing ~91 DPS. This is superior to the Punisher. That's without a BCS, too. If you slap on a BCS, you're doing 103. While your drones do ~111. The missiles on the new Worm are not useless- not by a long shot. You know how the Bellicose is a bit of a missiles/drones blend? Yeah. The Guristas ships are going to be kind of like that, with the balance tipped slightly more in favour of drones than missiles. Step out of the past, and look at the new ship without bias towards it's lackluster first iteration.

And for the love of ****stop trying to justify the removal of the missile bonus with "HURR DURR GALLENTE DONT INTO MISSILE U STUPID IF U THIKN THEY DO". This is a Gurista frigate. At least come up with a better argument than "but gallente don't use missiles".

I don't see why people are so against Sansha having an AB bonus. It fits perfectly. Have you seen the Incursion trailers? Have you been paying attention ingame? Sansha are marauding everywhere. They're marauding to the left, marauding to the right and marauding in the center. Marauding means speed, people. Speed in, speed out, lots of crazy chaos and damage (and in Sansha's case, slave abduction) in the middle.

Sansha ships are fast. In the trailers they're fast. In the Incursion battles they're fast. NPC Sansha rats are fast and their lasers hit hard (at least the incursion-zone ones are like this). They're sort of everything that Amarr isn't.

Amarr: Slow armor laserboats with bad tracking
Blood: Vampiric tackle-ambushes that can snare you from an AU away
Sansha: Fast shieldy laserboats with good tracking

A battleship.. going 1500m/s on an AB.. what?

I don't-

...what?

if you are worried about the meta 1-5 NOS range, well use the deadspace type-a one - haz 15.6km range.

Exactly the opposite - Tengu's AB speed forms a huge portion of her tank. Try to hit the ship at full speed, then web it and try to hit it again. You'll notice it's taking a bucketloads of damage more. That's why an elite frigate with web is her worst enemy in pve, but at the same time, it makes her pretty much immune to battleships.

A good Daredevil will need a Faction Web. No, a Blaster-Daredevil ain't a good Daredevil.
A good Dramiel (as pointed out earlier) will need a few faction / deadspace mods.


Also, if only using Tech 2 mods, a Cruor will still be a pretty nice ship - not for solo, but for gangs.
It brings longrange webs (where you would have to bring, say, a Hyena - which then adds NOTHING to the gang) so it can catch stuff, and f necessary, close in and deal some 200 dps with Multi, 220 with conflag. And, if closed in, it can also unleash some neuting pressure (for which you would have to bring a Sentinel) between 10 and 40 cap/s, depending on highslot layout.

The Web range bonus on the Cruor is useful to counter kiters, with overheated faction webs I think the range is like 36km... that's extremely useful regardless of the range of your weapons, for either closing down or for GTFO. Nice buff imo, looks like it's got good survivability in solo low sec roams.

EDIT: also really liking the new Worm

That is only true for the Cruor if your startegy only rely on the NOS. But first she doesn't actually need it to win a duel with another frigate ; and second this two bonuses synergize perfectly for a heavy tackle frigate in small gang.

The Cruor will be slightly behind the Comet in term of tank, firepower and speed, but with two neutralizing NOS. While kiting, it will be completely impossible to catch because of 20km web and you don't even need the nos.

At worse, the nos bonus is as situational as the armor rep bonus of gallente ship, and at best it's simply brutal.

And of course there's the high meta level nos, like c-type small nos with 8,5km range which simply solve every possible problem.

You must be trolling, these are crazily OP bonuses.

Being in a successful corp does not automatically make you as an individual an expert on every ship in the game. Notice that in numerous responses to this thread, I've only commented on the proposed blood raider changes. There is a reason for that.

As for staying out of my web range, good luck with that. I'll catch you on a gate (17km), a WH (<10km) or warp to your location at 0 after a prober in fleets gets your exact location. If you're moving, big deal, I'll land 10km away, less than half my web range. In the off chance you actually attacked me, also no problem because I'm sitting in the immediate vicinity of a gate/wh/station/pos. If it's a problem, I and anyone with me will simply move to the next system. If you pursue, you are going to start well within my web range.

As for closing to neut range, as I've already stated, charging in 5-6km while your target is 90% webbed is a lot easier than trying to close 40km with only a 60% web on the target. I don't know why you want a web range bonus so much. Just fly a damned rapier if you want that. It can web stuff at around 100km.

The reason why everyone want 90% web on the Cruor is because this bonus is absurdly powerful, if not completely OP.

As Kagura said, web range bonus will be very useful for the Ashimu because it will allow it to catch its target and come to neut range.

The difference with the Cruor is that base small neut range is 6km, too small compared to web... unless you use deadspace neut/nos with 8 to 10km range (2 of them are cheaper than one federation navy web everyone seems to think cheap enough to replace the web bonus...)

With deadspace neut/nos, the Cruor become insanely powerful : you can kite beyond scram range and neut the hell out of anything able to come closer ; and you can pin down the kiters and come closer to shut them down with the neut/nos and outbrawl them.

In fact, the Cruor is stronger than anything faster then him, and with the web, faster than anything stronger ; and the neut/nos wildcard assure it the upper hand in almost any fight where things can go wrong. The key is only in the deadspace neut/nos.

Anyway, all this bullshit about the 90%web bonus is unthought, because that's what the Cruor already have, and it's far from a renowned frigate at the moment, because for any task involving strong webing the Daredevil is better/prefered. Keeping the 90% web bonus on the Cruor would be useless and only leave it dusting in hangars for some more years. Such a bonus would not suddenly turn it good because it wouldn't change anything and something need to change, and I doubt the old version nos would be enough. At least, the long range web place it a an hybrid of Hyena and Sentinel, and I can't see this bad.

3. This is hilarious. You think Guristas' missile damage is going to nosedive. Well let me tell you something. New Worm? About 83 DPS out of two launchers. Same range and DPS as a punisher with dual pulses and Scorch. As compared to like... 40-ish DPS from completely unbonused launchers now, which is garbage. Then you have maybe 150 dps coming out of two drones... With attack frigate EHP and microscopic sig radii...

inb4 Fed Navy Hob + Worm

the cruors current role as a brawler with 90% web is just fine. it pushs a nice 12kehp tank before slaves or links. plenty to land inquisitor or navitas reps. Ashimmu is beautiful currently with the 90% web and one of the strongest t1/faction cruiser tanks in the game at the moment.

the power grid nerf on the cruor will completely destroy it's tank. it will have to fit 1 ACR. like ALLLLL amarr ships worth a damn. this is supposed to be a minmatar/amarr combined ship so cant this ship you know... have epic fitting like all minmatar ships fit the biggest guns and full t2 tank no big deal? can we? for the first ever laser ship?

or you know since amarr ships base speeds are one of the fastest in the game, and the minmatar are general fastest in the game after fitting tank. shouldnt this minmatar/amarr hybrid be wicked ******* fast?

seeing as there is no more debate its probably because people have finally accepted that ccp wont change what is broken about the new line of frigates.

thats destroyer dps. not frigate!

the pure neut cruor works fine as is. the new cruor with pure neut wont neut anything because it doesnt have 90% webs. simple.

you would have to have 2 nos's to run the 2 neuts the ab the scram the web 1 nos wouldnt do it. so it wouldnt be a pure neut cruor at all.

Hey guys

Getting caught up on some feedback here finally and working on the Cruor a bit as a result.

What I'd really like to do is get the Cruor into a place where it can keep the Blood bonus layout and still be powerful enough to see battle. The request that's been made several times for an extra low makes a lot of sense but I really didn't think it could afford to give up a high (1 turret? only 1 utility high?) or a mid (web bonus) so I was a bit stuck and then I realized there's no reason it can't have 11 slots, so that's what I'm going to do.

We're also going to up the base PG from 50 to 57 and the base CPU from 140 to 150. Finally, to pay a little back for these improvements we're taking one drone away (from 10m3 to 5m3).

Hopefully all in all this gives enough flexibility in fitting to let you take advantage of the slightly divergent bonuses and that lets us keep the faction line in tact and leave the Cruor as a very unique ship in the frigate class rather than forcing it to compete directly with the Sentinel.

Let me know what you think.

Make up some rp **** for the cruor so it can get a double range bonus for its guns (is not in line, but the bhaal wasnt either for years), making it a lower dps and slower slicer with a web range bonus and powerfull anti tackle neuts (beef its cap up so it can actually run mwd/point/guns/web for a bit).

Not ideal, but makes it usefull. There just isnt anything you can do about the cruor, it is crap design wise since the blood raider stuff really doesnt fit frigates at all.

Or give it a neut and gun range bonus, making it a weaker malice( lowering the pay to win aspect of the at).